Q & A Ma Jun on environmental pollution and civil society in China Oct 23, Jesper Svensson, GWF Senior Editor, University of Oxford

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1 Jesper Svensson, GWF Senior Editor, University of Oxford Ma Jun, the Director of the Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs (IPE) in Beijing, spoke with GWF about China s environmental pollution and the role of civil society in improving environmental outcomes. The Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs developed and launched China s first environmental public database, the China Pollution Map, as well as the Blue Map (Weilan Ditu), a mobile app that helps the public use micro-reports against environmental violations and polluted rivers. GWF: In 1999, you wrote the book China s Water Crisis. What has China achieved in terms of water conservation and protection since you wrote that book almost two decades ago? MJ: The biggest positive change is the increased recognition of the water challenges faced by China and the need to manage our water resources properly. Before 1999, there wasn t much attention paid to, or action taken over, water. But now citizens are concerned about water pollution, especially the health impacts of drinking contaminated water, and the indirect impacts this has on food health. The Government is also increasingly concerned. In 2015 the Central Government launched a new action plan on water pollution control. Through the government s efforts we have seen the health of some rivers that used to be contaminated, improve. For example, the Huai River and the Liao River in the North used to be the most contaminated rivers in China and although they are still in bad condition, the quality has improved. In the south, we also see some improvement in certain areas, such as in the Huangpu River. Having said that, the improvements have not reached a point where the waters are swimmable or fishable. In fact, since I wrote about the situation in 1999, overall contamination has spread because our economy has grown so much. The other problem is the quality of groundwater aquifers is still deteriorating. We still have a lot of work to do on Global Water Forum 1

2 water pollution control in China. GWF: What has driven these changes, where did the leadership and political commitment come from? MJ: The biggest source of motivation comes from the harsh reality that in the densely populated coastal regions and the central-western part of China it is not easy to find clean rivers and lakes anymore. People can see that through their own eyes. In some places, people are already suffering from diseases. In addition, a general awareness of the effects of pollution has been building as a result of environmental education in governmental schools, by NGO partners, and amongst civil society. This has been a driving force for change in China. Yet, the issue should have gained even greater attention than it has done. Rivers in rural areas are also highly polluted and up to 300 million rural residents still don t have sufficient access to safe and clean drinking water. However, because the most vulnerable are in the countryside, they have less voice and the pollution in these areas is less reported. GWF: You recently said that China has reached its environmental tipping point. What do you mean by that? MJ: Tipping points are different to turning points and we still haven t passed a turning point when it comes to environmental quality. We all see that the smog issue is still quite bad and in some areas it is getting worse. For water pollution generally the situation is not satisfactory, and in some areas it is deteriorating. Groundwater quality in general has not improved and is also still deteriorating. However, there has been some real political will generated in China to deal with environmental problems. In some ways this political will is not driven by water pollution because this issue is hitting the disadvantaged groups in rural areas and it has not gained Global Water Forum 2

3 sufficient attention in urban areas. In contrast, the air pollution problem has really hit the urban residents and no one can escape it. This issue has garnered so much attention that the Government has decided that if it doesn t solve this problem then there could be major implications. From 2011, the Government decided to monitor and disclose Particulate Matter (PM2.5) and other air pollution parameters across 400 cities in China to allow people to understand the air pollution problem. In 2014, the Government responded to an NGO initiative and ruled that major emitters must publish their online monitoring data and make real time disclosures of emissions. I refer to that as a tipping point because for so many years the real problem has been that regulations issued by the Central Government have not been enforced properly at the local level. Coupled with that there has been extensive local protection of enterprises in each respective jurisdictions. I believe the only way to break that local protection given to polluters is through extensive public participation. Global Water Forum 3

4 Ma Jun confronting a factory releasing emissions in the dead of night in northern China in Image: Wang Jingjing. GWF: How can participation of civil society in China make a difference? MJ: The problem of enforcing environmental regulations is not a challenge only for China. When environmental laws and regulations were changed in America, Japan, and Germany in the 1970s it was challenging even there. But in those countries, the NGOs and activists could go to the court to drive enforcement. In China, the judicial system has yet to function like that. So we have to find an alternative way to drive basic legal compliance. In my view, the alternative could only be extensive public participation. If people are informed about the bad environmental violations happening in their neigbourhood, they will not tolerate it. Public participation could help support local environmental agencies to overcome the interference made by local governmental officials who try to protect the polluting factories. Global Water Forum 4

5 Since I wrote that book 18 years ago, the rules and standards have been tightened. Having said that, the cost of violation remains much lower than the cost of compliance. This basic situation has not changed since As a result, those who cut corners have been rewarded by the market. It means the market continues to work against environmental protection. Over the past 10 years, what the Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs has been trying to do with our NGO partners is to provide people with access to information, as well as involving businesses and holding them accountable. Through these joint efforts, we increase the cost of violations. On the supply-chain side, more than 3000 suppliers have so far come out to address their violation problems. As a result of the public s direct supervision through apps, around 650 major coal power plants, cement, steel and iron factories have openly addressed their violation records. Yet, although this is progress, it is still just a drop of water in a bucket. GWF: Are you optimistic about the future? MJ: We can t give up hope. I do see some positive change, which gives me hope personally. The rising public awareness, the changing government policy, the expansion of transparency, and more willingness from those big businesses to join the efforts. We are finally getting Chinese enterprises and entrepreneurs joining our efforts. For instance, we recently got 17 large property developers to use our data to manage their iron, steel, and cement suppliers. We are helping them to come up with a white list, which identifies compliant suppliers, so that the developers can leverage their massive buying power to tackle those polluters who are responsible for the smog. Recently we have also been invited to join efforts organized by the Central Bank of China on green finance. Hopefully the financial institutions can leverage their massive power to influence many Global Water Forum 5

6 companies. Jesper Svensson is reading for a DPhil at the Smith School of Enterprise and the Environment, University of Oxford. He holds a Master of Science in Asian Studies from Lund University, and two Bachelor s degree in Political Science and Environmental Science from School of Business, Economics and Law at University of Gothenburg. Prior to joining University of Oxford, Jesper worked as a Research Assistant for the Transboundary Rivers and Adaptation to Climate Extremes in North America (TRACE North America) project under Dr Dustin Evan Garrick. Previously, he was a Visiting Scholar at China Academy of Sciences where he conducted research on the water-energy-food nexus in the Yellow River Basin. Ma Jun is the Director of the Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs in Beijing. In 2006, he was awarded as China s Green Person of the Year and was named as one of TIME Magazine s World s 100 Most Influential People. Ma was also honored with the Magsaysay Award in 2009 and Goldman Prize in 2012 for his environmental protection work in China, as well as the 2015 Skoll Foundation Award for Social Entrepreneurship for his innovative approach to lifting the veil on China s pollution problems. The views expressed in this article belong to the individual authors and do not represent the views of the Global Water Forum, the UNESCO Chair in Water Economics and Transboundary Water Governance, UNESCO, the Australian National University, or any of the institutions to which the authors are associated. Please see the Global Water Forum terms and conditions here. Global Water Forum 6