_ Mr Butt Tell me then, as head of that unit and I notice someone is outside the door at the moment, stop the tape.

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1 AN INTERVIEW WITH PETER WINDSOR GOVERNOR HEAD OF FELTHAM B PRESENT: Ted Butt, Senor Investgatng Offcer Ifor Smout, Investgatng Offcer Ncole Bygrave, Admn Assstant Peter, you know that I am nvestgatng the ncdent between Robert Stewart and Zahd Mubarak, that occurred on the 21 March. It s now a murder enqury and Stewart has been charged wth murder because Zahd ded on 28 March ths year. Can you tell me when you frst became aware of ths ncdent? Mr Wndsor When I arrved on the mornng after the ncdent, I thnk about 7.40, ts about my normal tme, somebody told me that there had been a dffcultevenng, that's when I frst became aware of t. _ Can you tell me f there are any systems n place to ensure that when such &... serous ncdent takes place that all the relevant paperwork s completed and all the paperwork for that nght s safe? Mr Wndsor The responsblty of gettng all the paperwork together falls to the duty governor, ts part of the duty governor's oblgatons and normally he/she wll lase wth the orderly offcer, gather the bts together and ensure that t s reported as an ncdent or whatever. We know that the nght patrol report s mssng, s there any check lst for_e duty offcer or the duty governor to refer to; to make sure that everythng s done._" ' ' Mr Wndsor Not that I am aware of, obvously there s contngency plans, f you pull a contngency plan out there s check lsts among them, that's whe'e I would go to double check that everythng s done rght. _ Tell me then, as head of that unt and I notce someone s outsde the door at the moment, stop the tape., Asmanager of Feltham B, how long have you been at Feltham? MrWndsor About 8 months. Have you checked tha.t there s a system n place whch deals wth emergency, stuatons, s t an adequate system, have you made those checks? Mr Wndsor Yes, I am qute famlar wth the contngency plans, I know they are beng revewed at the moment as all nsttutons are wth the new Contngency Plannng Manual, but from what I have seen I would have thought our contngency plans are reasonable. The duty governor on the nght says the'e s no check lst for hm to check aganst.?.-.. f _ Mr Wndsor would have thought there was somethng he could have followed, I mean obvously contngency plans don't cover every sngle contngency plan and some you've got to! follow as an ade memor. 1 But there s obvously, the paperwork that was requred was not gathered up at the end of ths ncdent. Mr Wndsor I am unaware of that. - -_96-

2 ' Can you tell me what your job entals and what are your responsbltes? Mr Wndsor I am responsble for the populaton whch s Feltham B, so I am responsble for the nne unts at Feltham B, Each contans about 60 prsoners plus the segregaton, Wate whch s the ant-bullyng unt plus Teal, whch s closed. About 500 prsoners and the staff that go wth them. I have just recently taken over vsts and recepton. Also I'm one of the trpartte senor team, the Governor and the two Deputy Governors, so from tme to tme I am responsble for the whole nsttuton. So what managers report to you on your sde of the prson, drect.? Mr Wndsor Frank Sharp and John Byrd the two governor grades and then n turn there s a number of prncpal offcers, senor offcers and offcers. Can you tell me what targets you have been set here n your PPRS or any specfc targets that the Governor has set you. Mr Wndsor I shall have to refer to the targets, my mnds gone a complete blank. There are a number of targets set, bascally settlng down the management system. When I arrved here we found that the nsttuton wasn't managed very well. I thnk personally after a long perod of declne, and very short of staff, the major ssue was to buld a proper management team, whch I thnk I have done. _ You say you have bult a proper management team, are there any major targets that you have set that team that you are responsble for. Mr Wndsor I thnk t was just gettng the fundamentals n place makng sure they had more tme out of cell, lookng at what we dd wth exercse perods and tryng to develop a regme. Personally I beleve that Feltham has lost ts way over a number of years and not mantaned the bascs and that's been the thrust snce I arrved to get the bascs rght. What system have you put n place to montor the targets that's set to the staff that report to you? MrWndsor We have a daly log from each unt tellng me what happened on the unt the prevous day. I have a hands on meetng every mornng for half an hour where every resdental manager dscusses any problems wth prsoners any dffcultjes he's had n the last 24 hours, any dffcultes he foresees n the next 24 hours. All my managers are male so I can say they are he's. The major ssues facng us over the last few months s the acute shortage of staff and how we have been able to look after and manage the nsttuton safely. Recepton s one of your areas of responsblty s t? Mr Wndsor Only from 1 Aprl, so I have just now taken t over, from ths reportng perod. Were you aware snce you have been here that not all nmates are seen by a medcal offcer when they come to Feltham. Mr Wndsor No, I am surprsed to hear that. I have been n recepton on a number of occasons and thought the health screenng was of a good standard. I know and I've seen J regularly dozens of prsoners beng seen on Lapwng by the medcal offcer, so t surprses me that people have slpped by. "1 : Were you responsble for securty before 1-Aprl?,

3 Mr Wndsor No, I am stll not apart from we are all responsble for securty. Who s the manager of the securty department? Mr Wndsor Mck Cowan. Who does he report to? ' Mr Wndsor Drect to the Governor. There are certan PSOs whch we are requred to ensure are n place and they are... comng out n droves and on the PSI that comes wth the PSO there s mandatory acton for governors, what system s n place to ensure that mandatory happens n your area? Mr Wndsor The Secretarat sends us copes. Prson Servce Standards come along, that helps us because that gves us the key baselnes and there s normally a tmescale attached. What we normally do s brng out an acton plan that goes wth t and try to meet the needs of those acton plans. Bearng n mn-dwe are fallng over acton plans left rght and centre. We have a number of dfferent vstng people who have found thngs wrong wth Feltham and t s dffcult to meet everythng you need to meet. So when you go round your areas of responsblty, what systems have you put n _ place to ensure that the offcer on the floor, va your managers, are dong what you expect them to do. Mr Wndsor We have the daly regme log whch throws up a number of key questons, then we've got the daly meetng. I am qute a hands on person I feel that what we need here s lots of vsble management so when we go n on a unt they know I ask for certan thngs, so I vsbly nspect thngs, obvously I look at the cleanng standards, I look at thngs lke 2052SH's, I lke to examne them personally and E -books and I wll actually talk to prsoners about what's gong on. Do you have a look at the flmsy's Mr Wndsor Occasonally, I tena to. look at them a lot when I do adjudcatons, I found that the _ flmsy's surprsngly have been farly good. I look at flmsy's also when we refer people for ant-bullyng or n case of any dffcultes. Whenever I speak to prsoners f there s an ssue, I usually make an entry. I found flmsy's to be a farly good standard.. It's obvous from ths nvestgaton that Stewart came n on 3 occasons nto ths _; establshment and hs 2050 never went any further than recepton and the custody offce. Is there a system n place where convcted nmates who are transferred from other establshments to Feltham for the frst tme are assessed the day after recepton, does someone read that 2050 or the flmsy that comes wth t? t.t Mr Wndsor The recepton and nducton perod s not good t s poor and we dong that at the moment. There s a recepton board of sorts and they have a check lst of 2 peces of paper and check what's been and move people on. You say there s a check lst, do they check the nformaton that s n the F2050? --Mr-W_lser My-understandng.-s that-they.-do...,:

4 I It s qute evdent n ths case that they ddn't. There s a bt about systematc checks that procedures are takng place. Mr Wndsor I thnk we have been awash wth people Can I stop you there I am not askng for the excuses I am askng for what happens. Can you tell f pror to ths ncdent there was any nstructon to staff on the wngs about locatng nmates? Mr Wndsor Apart from the sucde awareness bt, each wng has ts on role and there are convcted wngs and unconvcted wngs. I can't recall a wrtten nstructon but there s certan basc thngs that everyone knows that Mallard, Swallow, Raven has ts! partcular role.... What s that role? Mr Wndsor Mallard s the convcted wng manly drugs free. Swallow s convcted wng wth people who are consdered qute settled and lookng for employment. Raven s for 7 the more Vulnerable lads. Partrdge s lke a half way house. We tend to be moved nto the areas that recepton staff felt that they were more comfortable wth and that's how the system works and works qute successfully. ~-,-_ I The decson s made by recepton.! Mr Wndsor By nducton, Lapwng.! Who's responsble for the nducton wng, whch s Lapwng?! Mr Wndsor One of my wngs. _--_ Who s the manager on the floor responsble for that wng? Mr Wndsor Senor Offcer Mately. I ;! There must a be governor n between that: ; I ' MrWndsor Very much so. SO Mately s the SO /c. Above hm ts Mr Penwrght, then John Byrd, then me. Stewart became a remand prsoner, hs status changed the day before ths offence took place. Mr Wndsor Yes. What's the normal procedure when status change s. Mr Wndsor The normal procedure s to move people from a convcted wng to an unconvcted wng. That s the past has had acute dffcultes where we've moved people on status rather than on behavour and where they are settled. We have had lots of self harm, ths was before my tme, lots of self harm and ndscplne. The vew ' taken now by the management and I underpn ths vew s we try to settle people on J unts and obvously take account of ther status but wth Stewart ts not uncommon for someone to say ts a couple of days and he s n wth someone he s settled wth, as we understood, we would move them wthn a day or two of beng convcted, or change of status. Actually_wth-_some_of_the_more_dffculLpdsoners_who_bave 3499

5 dffculty settlng, once they have settled n wth a peer and wth the staff that they get on wth, ts not uncommon for them to stop there for 3 or 4 weeks or longer, n the wrong wng. I know of an ndvdual on Swallow at the moment who was extremely dffcult,.he settled down the staff know hm, the other prsoners know hm, so there s less chance of hm beng dsruptve and there s less chance of hm self harmng, so there s a tendency for people to settle n the wng f that's the best place for them, or ts perceved to be the best place for them. Someone who has changed status, I can understand what you are sayng but we don't know whether that changed status affects ther thoughts, actons and deeds, so the queston s, s there any process by whch an assessment s made before you decde that the person stays where he s. Mr Wndsor There s no wrtten formal process, the process s normally dscusson among staff, a dscusson wth the prsoner and ts basc warder work, ts dscussng where people are gong to settle, ts day to day stuff. How do you know that happens? MrWndsor I have talked to the staff n the past, I've talked to staff how we've looked at ndvduals. Its a common belef that settlng dffcult young offenders. We are always makng decsons and talkng about ndvduals, obvously not daly but 4 or 5 " tmes a week when we have lads and we need to say how are we gong to settle ths lad down, Now t may be for a dscplne problem t may be because he s self harmng. It's a common thng to do. Mr Wndsor How s that decson recorded? It may be n hs flmsy, t may not be recorded. Do you thnk that s an effectve management tool? HOWdo you know ts happens? Apart from you feel t should happen. J Mr Wndsor I am nvolved wth the dscussons. I know t needs formalsng. I am nvolved n enough dscussons to know t s common practce. ' It mght be common practce but t seems to me that the decson s beng made at the lowest common denomnator. Do you not nvolve probaton, psychologsts and medcal nput nto any decson. Mr Wndsor At the moment probaton s 7 staff short. l I 1 Can I fnsh my queston? If t was gong to be consdered that someone should stay on the unt where they are when ther status changes, s there not a formal board n place that would look at the crcumstances of that ndvdual and make that Mr Wndsor decson? No. In retrospect that's easy to make a suggeston. I Mr Wndsor I know there sn't. t So when the bloke goes from recepton, n the evenng, to the wng, and we beleve ' n ths case t apples to Stewart, one offcer could be responsble for decdng where he_goes

6 ! Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor yes. Is that not revewed the next day by the management of that wng? Not always. Doyou thnk that's a falng? Yes. You mentoned earler on there was a shortage of staff, how have you prortsed the work to account for that shortage? The shortages are results of qute regularly 23 hour bang up. The prortes easly sorted out, occasonally we feed n rotaton even now, ths weekend we are desperately short. The prortes actually shout at you, the prortes are to do wth bascs of lfe, they should be fed, get a lttle bt of.tme out of cel, get clean clothes and that's the stuaton we've been n. That's how the prortes have rsen. What we do each mornng at the mornng meetng we look at the staff avalable and we decde on the jobs that needed coverng. For nstance f there s a medcal escort we would have to staff that frst. What we try to do s ensure that the unts have equal opportuntes of a regme avalable. What do you consder are the bascs? The bascs, f ts convcted prsoners, wthn the day, f the works whether he gets there. We are talkngabout bascs, ensurng the meals are on tme, ensurng that lads have the opportunty to get out and have showers, have a bt of assocaton, phone home, get to vsts and supervse them and kept safe. Do you record what every prsoner gets every day? On the daly regme montor form they would put down what they acheved to do that day. How do you as a manager know that what's recorded on that form happens? Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor By deployng managers, we have put a new system n, we have a hkng senor offcer who vsts each wng n turn, he'll look after 3 unts by ensurng that the prncpal offcers are out and about vstngl beng vsble, by ensurng that the governor grades are out beng vsble. Managng by walkng about, beng there seeng what's happenng, lookng at ther watch. How do you ensure that? How do we ensure that happens? How do you know ths mornng a PO an SO and a governor 5 has vsted Lapwng? They would all have been. ; There s system n place. Mr Wndsor They ntal E books and F2052SHs :._. -_01-

7 Mr Wndsor They can do that any tme. They could There s a new log book ntroduced sn't there? Mr Wndsor You would do on the 2052SHs because you are tmed. There s a new log book ntroduced on wngs on most establshment whch records what actvty takes place, t records vstors, the offcers log when people vst. Does that happen n Feltham?... : Mr Wndsor We are ntroducng a new log book, I have seen the new log book. Its not n operaton yet. Mr Wndsor No, we have conscously been team buldng over the last 3 or 4 months, talkng to the Governor, how are you gong to take thngs forward and t was felt that we needed to take thngs forward qute quc!_ly, buld relatons wth the staff and actually brng the staff on board. So we have done a lot of that hgh profle beng vsble,, supportve, we need now to move to beng more enforesve, f that s the rght word, wth the systems n place now we see the staff comng on board. Ths nvestgaton has dscovered the systems are not n place and have certanly hghlghted that. Mr Wndsor Ths s possbly the worst nsttuton I have worked at, fndng that there s a lack of foundaton n a lot of thngs we do. ' If you dentfed that then, and you called t the worst nsttuton you worked at, what have you done to make sure the systems are n place that protects the nmate, from recepton to locaton and further., Mr Wndsor When you arrve somewhere new there s a long lst of prortes and you work towards them n good fath. The prortes as we saw them as a team, was to manage the resources as safely as we could wthn the resources we had. tam concerned about the mon!torng, of systems and objectves. Mr Wndsor One pont, the vew taken by the team was that what we were most at rsk from was self harm. So we spent more tme lookng at self harm and lookng at how we could settle people and nvolved n the regme. In my 23 years of servce I have never, come across ths type of ncdent. And even wth 2020 hndsght, ts dffcult and stll dffcult to predct, and I stll feel the prorty was self harm and that s where we put a._ lot more resources n. 1 '! You mentoned about revewng nformal case revews of prsoners for decdng the status where they change, you say the tdgger for that s the pdsoner's behavour. If, he was a bad lad and he's becomng a better lad you take a decson about t. Mr Wndsor I thnk self harm s probably care, we normally move people around, the norm s self harm, where do they settle, where do they feel safe, where do they get on better. If we move people around ts because of ther behavour but ts the rsk to other prsoners, we have been lookng at rsk to prsoners, agan they each need to learn from themselves..

8 The trgger for that the prsoner's behavour, not an nducton/recepton assessment of every prsoner. MrWndsor I agree. Its trggered by ant-bad behavour, acts of self harm or somethng else has dentfed, recorded as self harm or he has a hstory of t. Mr Wndsor Its an mportant pont. A lot of our nformaton s based on, we know hm we know what he was lke last tme and ts passng that nformaton around. So there s no system n place to assess every convcted prsoner that comes nto the place. Mr Wndsor MrButt Mr Wndsor Apart from the self harm and there s a very poor system of nducton. There s no nput from probaton to some of ths, s that correct? Not at the moment, Probaton have not the resources... What nput does the psychology have on nductons, new people comng n to the place, do you know?! _ Mr Wndsor Very lttle. So we've got a probaton department that sn't operatng because of staff shortages,... we've got a psychology department; would I be rght n assumng and I really need a yes/no answer to ths, that t appears to me that these unts appear to work n solaton, there s not a corporate gude to the establshment. _" Mr Wndsor No, I dsagree strongly wth that. I can't gve you a yes or not answer to that. When... I frst arrved I had 9 ndependent unts wth ndependent staffng wth ndependent! proflng of staff, we were all off n dfferent drectons, and one of the man pushes :' we have had s brngng those together. We've moved from ndependent unts to { cluster management, nstead of havng 9 we've got 3 groups of 3 and I thnk that's worked. There s stll some dffcultes but ts somethng I dsagree strongly that J : there sn't a corporate vew on where we are gong.. The corporate vew I am referrng to s the corporate orders, the nstructons that staff understand. It would appear to me and I've got to go through a lot of stuff that there are stll people who work n solaton, not n lne wth corporate nstructons, nsttutonal nstructons, would you agree wth that? Mr Wndsor Yes n ths sort of nsttuton, remarkably. Why Mr Wndsor Its a reflecton of nsttutons as a whole, ts very dffcult to get everybody to workng n the same drecton, f we were n a major hosptal or n a school, ts very dffcult to _ get everybody workng n the same way. What I have tred to do, f you notce on the clusters we've got the corporate rnage of what that cluster does and the key staff. Let's go back to the bascs you mentoned earler on, those are vsonary thngs. Let's go back to the bascs, I want every sngle offcer, every sngle prsoner on. these wngs to have _hs_lbbs.done_eve_-day.--lwanlhm_to_go_to_shower_eve_ -#_03-

9 day, I want to make sure he has exercse every day. These are very basc thngs. And I want every prsoner to be safe. We have found great dffculty n fndng out anythng whch actually ensure that happenng whch s checked, these are the bascs you were talkng about earler on. Can you pont out somewhere to me as a new offcer on that wng, how I'm expected to be... and not vsually thngs whch actually don't mean very much, what makes that prsoner feel safe. Are there any nstructons, how to do cascade that? Mr Wndsor Mr Wndsor In the normal way. We do a lot more face to face stuff speak to staff face to face, and I found n ths nsttuton over the years, people have wrtten a 101 thngs that nobody has taken any notce of. So we have tred to be a lot more face to face. If you don't record ths how do you know that s gong to happen? Because we have a team for three's, we tred to nsert ths trpartte vew of 3 of us dong t. How can I go on a wng now and check that you, your G5S and your PO have : checked those thngs have happened. I haven't been able to fnd t out yet. Mr Wndsor Those procedures are not n place. Are there operatonal nstructons for staff here? If I joned as an offcer, on the wng, f there's a daly routne, there should be operatonal nstructons to tell me what I've got to do. If you are the nght orderly offcer there s an operatonal nstructon. Does that apply across the prson? Mr Wndsor No. Its dsjonted. What we are n the mddle of dong, some wngs have done t, we try to spread about good practce. I am conscous now we are gong on dfferent thngs I am gong to stop the tape.! J \! ", -_04-

10 INTERVIEW WITH PETER WINDSOR Peter, can you tell me f a formal de-brefng occurred wth ndvduals, or as a group? Mr Wndsor My understandng s that on the day after the ncdent, I went to the hosptal. My understandng s that the Governor met al the staff on the unt that day, and then dd some ndvdual stuff wth members of staff who seemed to be very upset about the ncdent. Mr Wndsor Do you know f there was any care team nput? Yes, a number of care team members saw ndvduals prvately, and also went onto the unt to offer ther servces. Was there any contact wth the famly of Zubarek? Mr Wndsor Yes, I went on the mornng after the ncdent to the hosptal, where I met the famly, gave them my card, and we spent all day there wth them as well as the Drector General turned up on that day. I have had no contact snce, although I left my card. I talked to the Muslm Advser who had seen the famly, and he felt t was better for me not to approach the famly but just to _ wat n case they approached me. Rght. So after that ntal meetng you have had no contact wth them? Mr Wndsor None at all, although today I have got a letter from a member of the publc askng that I send that on so I mght talk to you about that. _ Rght. Was there any resultant staff sckness or stress from those who were nvolved? Mr Wndsor We had one member of staff who took medcal advce and had about seven " days specal leave, he felt very upset. Mr Wndsor Nobody else gone off sck? Not that I know of. Do you know what the actons of the Duty Governor were at the tme of the ncdent?. Mr Wndsor Not n detal., _ I won't actually go nto that, because I've actually got that on Keth's ntervew. ; -How was the Governor brefed about ths - verbally... Mr Wndsor He was already n the nsttuton when I arrved n the mornng. My understandng s that he was nformed n the nght. -. Snce then there has been an ongong polce nvestgaton n whch staff have been talkng qute openly. Mr Wndsor Yes Thank you _405-