TOWN OF PLAINFIELD BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS. April 16, 2007

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1 TOWN OF PLAINFIELD BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS April 16, 2007 The Plainfield Board of Zoning Appeals met on Monday, April 16, In attendance were Mr. Monnett, Ms. Duffer, Mr. Cavanaugh, Mr. Gibbs and Mr. Matrana. ROLL CALL/DETERMINATION OF QUORUM Mr. Carlucci administered the Roll Call. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE APPROVAL OF MINUTES Mr. Cavanaugh said I have a correction on the Opus petition. It was pertaining to the expansion of the parking area into the front yard setback. I was not present for that petition. I recused myself and it shows me being present and voting and I did not. With that correction I make a motion to approve the minutes of March 19, 2007 as amended. Second by Mr. Gibbs. Motion carried. OATH OF TESTIMONY Mr. Daniel administered the Oath of Testimony. PUBLIC HEARINGS Mr. Matrana reviewed the Guidelines Governing the Conduct of Public Hearings. The first matter before the board I think might be continued. It concerns BZA , Hernan Bobienko. Ms. Sprague can you let us know if they do indeed want to continue this petition? Ms. Sprague said they are requesting a continuance. There was a little bit of an issue. They did not receive the first that gave them the notice so it didn t get sent out quite on time so they were hoping to continue it until the next month. Mr. Gibbs asked, are they working with Tractor Supply? (Inaudible). Ms. Sprague asked, which outstanding issue is that? Ms. Duffer asked, are you talking about the shared driveway? Mr. Gibbs said yes. Ms. Sprague said I don t know necessarily that it is Tractor Supply Company. It is either Premier Property that owns the actual drive or it is an association of those businesses surrounding it but they are working on it. Mr. Gibbs said (inaudible). Ms. Sprague said they have also provided us with two different plans; one that would include a drive from there and one that would include a drive off of U.S. 40. Mr. Gibbs said with that I will make a motion to continue BZA , Hernan Bobienko to the next month s meeting. Second by Ms. Duffer. Motion carried. Mr. Matrana said the next matter before the BZA tonight concerns Welch Systems and BZA Ms. Sprague said the petitioner wants to put in an ATM, an exterior ATM at the Murphy Oil, which is in front of the Wal-Mart. This is the location. It is all zoned General Commercial and across the street is zoned General Commercial as well. The request actually requires three actions in this case. The petitioner applied for an ILP because the Planning Department was considering this an accessory use in the beginning, which only requires an ILP approval. Mr. James did have a couple of questions about it so he had taken it informally to the Plan Commission and the DRC and asked them how they felt about the petitioner s proposal. At the time the petitioner was proposing the! 1

2 ATM at the northwest corner, which would have been along U.S. 40 and DRC did not feel that was a good location out in front of the building and also the Plan Commission decided it didn t really seem like an appropriate accessory use for the convenience store. They felt it would be more appropriate for a bank so they determined that a Variance of Use would be more appropriate. So, at that point Mr. James had denied the ILP and the first part is what the administrative ILP would be for. The second part would be if you agree with what the Plan Commission said, then the Variance of Use would allow the ATM location at the Murphy Oil as a convenience store. With the location they are suggesting at the moment is in the rear of the property but it is within the five foot green space setback area so that is what the Variance of Development Standards is for. Currently there are three sites within a quarter of a mile that have ATMs including inside Wal-Mart. I know the National City is nearby and I believe the Flag Star Bank is real close by that has an ATM. Plainfield has a lot of convenience stores with ATMs but they are all just inside. Mr. Matrana asked, does Wal-Mart already have an ATM inside of the store? Ms. Sprague said they have an ATM with the bank that is inside. Mr. Matrana said they also have a bank inside. Ms. Sprague said yes. Mr. Carlucci said where you pay inside is there a way to go inside that building? Ms. Sprague said I believe so. I haven t actually gone inside. If I go, I go outside. Mr. Carlucci asked, is there a store inside the building? Ms. Sprague said yes. Mr. Hewitt said they call it a kiosk. The way Murphy is designed it is a kiosk where you can actually go outside. There is a walk-in if it is bad weather. Mr. Carlucci said part of what you are asking is to determine whether that is a convenient store. Ms. Sprague said no; whether or not the ATM would be an appropriate accessory use for the gas station. Mr. Carlucci said so it is a gas station and not a convenient store where you go inside and can get cigarettes and treats and things like that. Mr. Hewitt said it is but it is a kiosk convenience store. It is just a kiosk style where they have stuff inside and sell soda and tobacco products. Ms. Sprague said most of the time the customers don t go inside. As proposed, the traffic for the ATM would be heading actually west whereas the traffic on that side of the drive-thru is heading east. That is where the hazardous conditions could come from is the opposing traffic flow. I think you can see it in this picture. The ATM is actually located over here and the traffic goes this way but the traffic since we drive on the right side of the street goes that way in that location whereas the left bound people would have to drive over onto the left side of the road. Also, on that the map the location that was proposed at the DRC and the Plan Commission was up here and this is U.S. 40 right here. This was also the original plan that was shown to DRC. The petitioner has done some different facade treatments to their ATM stands. This was actually done in Shelbyville. They said that they would probably be willing to do such a treatment out at this location and could match it to the Murphy Oil columns. If the aesthetics were a concern, they felt that they could cover that. They have also proposed a plan that shows some landscaping around the site as well. This is the proposed location on the site. I would be happy to answer any questions.! 2

3 Mr. Daniel said it is my understanding that the Plan Commission determined that the primary use is a gas/filling station, a service station and that this is not an accessory use. There was some discussion here about a convenience store but irrespective of whether or not this is classified as a convenience store it is my understanding that they have to have a Use Variance to put this ATM on this site. Ms. Sprague said that is how I understood it. Mr. Carlucci said that is why they are getting a Use Variance, is that correct? Mr. Daniel said right. Mr. Carlucci said you also talked about whether they would need to appeal the policy ruling of the Plan Commission. Ms. Sprague said that is right and I m not sure whether we are supposed to do both or just one or the other. Mr. Carlucci said I think if they made a determination that this will require a Use Variance, I don t think there is anything the BZA can do about it. Ms. Sprague said I didn t know if the appeal process was supposed to go through the BZA or not. I don t know if that is why Mr. James had this in here. Mr. Carlucci said I didn t see the legal notice either for the appeal. Is there an appeal? Ms. Sprague said no. Mr. Carlucci said I think it is a request for a Use Variance. The BZA can certainly make that decision. Ms. Sprague said and the petitioner has applied for that so I don t think that they are opposed to that. Mr. Hewitt said to be honest I m kind of confused. We are kind of taking Mr. James direction on where to go and what to do. We just want to cooperate. Mr. Daniel said what Mr. Carlucci is saying is correct. The Improvement Location Permit is denied because the decision was made that this is not an accessory use that is allowed by our zoning authority in Plainfield. You could appeal that decision to the Board of Zoning Appeals and ask the Board of Zoning Appeals basically to decide whether the Plan Commission s decision was correct or incorrect. Another alternative is ignore that and say we are not going to appeal that but we are just going to go and ask that the Board of Zoning Appeals provide us with a Use Variance. If that is approved by the Board of Zoning Appeals, it doesn t matter what the Plan Commission said one way or another. If you get the Use Variance, you have basically been allowed to do something different than what the zoning law allows you to do. As I understand it, if you have applied for a Use Variance, I believe that is what is before the board tonight. Mr. Carlucci said I have another question. It isn t necessarily related to this but it involves that property. I know there is a requirement on changeable copy boards. They are supposed to change so many times per hour. Do you know if they are in compliance with that? Ms. Sprague said yes they fixed that. Mr. Carlucci said that was an issue for a while and I just wanted to make sure that they were in compliance. Ms. Sprague said no they have worked on it. Mr. Hewitt from St. Louis, Missouri said I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have. Mr. Matrana asked, is there a reason why Murphy built the gas station years ago that they didn t put in the ATM at that time and get this issue resolved long ago?! 3

4 Mr. Hewitt said in hindsight I think we probably wish that we would have but one of the things that they wanted to do with the ATM is make sure that they did it right. It is a pretty big operational verses sticking something out there like an ice machine or something. It does take a lot of operational when you consider the bulk cash and operations and how it works. They wanted to have it to where they could really have the time, etc. to focus on it. So, what they have tried to do is they put it in the plans; it is in the original site plan and they have an ATM there. But one of the things that Murphy has hired us to do, Welch Systems is we are responsible for rolling out ATMs in all of the Murphy locations. They didn t have any ATMs at any of their locations for the most part. But they had always planned to put ATMs because they are in the convenient store business and it is one of the top services that they offer customers. I think they have just under 1,200 locations now so now their growth has slowed down to where they really want to roll this out. That is what our job is to do is to roll that out in all the locations now that they are there. For brand new locations we are trying to work to get them done as we are rolling this out. But we do have it in the original site plan. The original site plan did have an ATM on the premises but Murphy has instructed us, even though they are in the site plans, to say we still want to go out and work with the cities and make sure everything is okay; whatever permits we need because each municipality is a little bit different. Sometimes just go ahead and do it; it is in the original plan; no problem and then sometimes we want more discussions about it. This is obviously a very nice location; it is a little different with the bricks and the stucco tops. We want to work with the City in making sure we blend it in and make it look as nice as we can and that everyone is happy with it because it is going to be there for a while but I don t really understand what we need to do. We are just kind of at your mercy and we will try to do and cooperate with you. My instruction is to cooperate and do whatever we need to do to meet your requests. I did bring a lot of facts and figures about ATMs in the convenient store industry. I read the document from Mr. James and I just was kind of reading through it and started answering the questions or the comments that he has. I don t know if that is the right protocol to do now or if I should just take questions. Mr. Carlucci said they need the information to help them make a decision. Mr. Hewitt said I have been in the ATM industry for 21 years; that s all I ve ever done with banks and with retailers. Those are our two primary customers. The market is changing on ATMs and the service where it s not just a bank anymore that is putting in ATMs. The first thing is I have a letter from Murphy and I will give it to you. They want to make sure that everyone understands that it is a very important service that they want to offer their customers. They are investing a lot of capital energy and company focus in putting this service in all their locations across the country. They have 1,006 locations currently. They believe strongly that ATMs will fit the model of providing services and products that are convenient to our customers. We have listed part of the reasons why they want to put ATMs in all of their locations. In the United States 90% of all convenient stores have an ATM on the site so nine out of 10 convenient stores have an ATM. Every major brand of any significance will have an ATM. The other thing that some people don t realize is 30% of the adult U.S. population does not have a banking relationship. So, 30% of our population don t go to a bank. They have whatever services they need with their direct deposit and work with even the grocery store, convenient store and other places to cash their checks and they also get a card. It is called a prepaid card where they load their checks through their card and then they have a means of getting money through an ATM. That is also the same people that frequent convenience stores. So, 30% of the population does not have a banking relationship. Sixty percent of the population use ATMs and are thriving as we all see direct deposits continue to grow. Over 60% of U.S. consumers or workers get direct deposit now and that is rapidly growing where I don t think there are too many paychecks going out anymore; it is mostly direct deposit. They estimate around 15% growth. Also, one of the big reasons, and we knew this was going in, is it is a number one service requirement from our customers. The second one is clean bathrooms so we try to do that also. I think you will find that we have some of the cleanest bathrooms for convenience stores, Murphy does. But it is a huge request by our customers. When you think of a convenience store, the whole idea behind an ATM is convenience. So, it! 4

5 is non-stop. So, even though there may be an ATM at the Wal-Mart or across the street at a National City if you go on Highway 40 and I was there all day today, it is a 15 minute jaunt to get across the street through traffic sometimes and it is just a convenience factor and that is what the ATM does. It is also a repeat customer. Eighty percent of all ATM transactions are by repeat customers meaning we all probably have one or two ATMs that we like to use and we are all creatures of habit. That is a big thing in the convenient store industry that we want our customers to want to keep coming back to us. If we don t have that service, we are losing some of our customers; I get my gas, I get my soda and I get my ATM or I get my money. Eighty-seven percent of the ATM consumers expect to find an ATM when they go to a convenient store. If you walk into a convenient store in any metropolitan area, there is a 90% chance that you are going to find one. So, you are most likely going to have that service when you use the ATM. This actually happened the year before last; there are now more ATMs installed nationally at convenient stores than there are at bank branches. So, this is a vital part of the convenient store business is to have an ATM for their business. In closing in their letter they wanted to thank you for discussing and considering these points and they are focused on offering value to customers to their products and service. ATM plays a vital role in that focus and hopefully after review of these facts you will reconsider the opinion of it not being an accessory to our business in the convenient store industry, which it is. So, I do think a few things have changed. We were speaking with Mr. James before with the other board. First of all we have come up with an aesthetically pleasing brick that will match the outside of the brick on the Murphy Oil with the brown stucco on the top. Originally they didn t know the ATM was in the original plan. They mentioned it was an after thought and it wasn t. We have always planned on placing an ATM in the business. It was in the original plans and the shrubs and bushes or whatever landscaping we can do to make the whole Murphy location more pleasing or whatever the board would like for us to do we are certainly willing to do that. We also have some options on the setback. I think we have three locations that we are willing to work with the City on which one works out best to put the ATM. I spent the afternoon out there just looking at it. You have an ice machine. You have a phone. You have an air pump for the car and a vacuum for your car. It is all in one unit. It depends on which lane is opened. It depends on which side your gas tank is on. Once you enter or exit everyone moves around cautiously and very slowly. It depends on all of that and you will see that most cars, where some of the lanes are, they are going the wrong way to use some of the other items depending on which side they want to use it on. There really is no traffic flow. After you enter and exit you are looking for the closest pump you can find depending on which side your gas tank is on. Mr. Gibbs said (inaudible). Mr. Hewitt said they authorize debit and credit cards. Ms. Duffer asked, what is your normal monthly transactions for your ATM? Mr. Hewitt said they are probably averaging two or three hundred a month, which would be considered an extremely low volume but to those two to three hundred customers per month it is very important. Mr. Matrana said you mentioned earlier that most convenient stores have restrooms and ATM machines inside but your kiosk is too small. Do you have restrooms? Mr. Hewitt said yes from the outside. You enter from the outside. Everything that we do is entered from the outside. It is part of the whole design of Murphy being convenient. There are a lot of reasons why convenient stores put ATMs on the inside and if you drive down Highway 40 or Main Street, you will see they put on the pumps ATM inside. You will see a neon light ATM inside. Their draw is to try to get consumers inside so they buy inside products. Ours is a little bit different. They know consumers are dependent on it when they come to a convenient store; there is a demand for it. Ours is the same way. We know the customers want to use it but ours is more based on the convenient factor based on our whole design. We are not! 5

6 trying to get you to buy another product. convenient destination for our customers. We want to become a Mr. Matrana said as I m looking at the display pictures of the ATM, it looks like you should stay inside your car and try to use the machine, is that correct? Mr. Hewitt said you can. What we find is similar to all of the items on there like the phone you will see people walking from the pump to use the phone, get their ice. So, it is going to be all kinds. People are going to park up to it real quick and use it. People are going to walk from their pumps. I really don t know the statistics on which ones are which but you are going to get a lot of different flavors. But even on a typical drive-up to an ATM that you would find at a bank most of the customers actually get out of their car or open their door and walk up to it. So, it is hard to say but yes that is correct. Ms. Duffer asked, is this ATM affiliated with any bank specific? Mr. Hewitt said no. Every ATM has to be sponsored from the network but it is for everybody. Ms. Duffer said it seems to me that Murphy Oil is in front of a Wal-Mart so do you have some agreement with Wal-Mart to provide gas in front of their stores? Usually Wal-Mart has a bank inside their stores as well so do they have any exclusives on financial institutions or banking regulations or anything like that? Mr. Hewitt said no. Part of the arrangement that Murphy has with Wal-Mart is that they have the rights to put this ATM in. That is one of the things that they always do is make sure they have the rights to put an ATM in because it uses different terminology but it is a standard service that you offer at a convenient store. So, that is the right that they keep. Ms. Duffer asked, what do you charge for this service? Mr. Hewitt said it is going to be typically in the Midwest between $1.50 and $2.00. There is talk about offering surcharge free access for everyone but if Murphy did that, they would do it across the board. If you look at the overall cost of putting one of these in, it is very expensive and for transactions a month we are losing money but we know it is a service that we need to offer. Mr. Daniel said on the application when you get a Use Variance, normally you have to provide evidence of some hardship that the property is suffering if the Use Variance is not granted. I didn t see much of a description for a hardship on your application. Can you tell me what the hardship is? Mr. Hewitt said I would just think we are at a competitive disadvantage by not having it as a service. Even the first time the customer comes and uses it they expect to find one there. We are probably going to get the business that day but the next time on Friday afternoon they will fill up with gas and they want to get their cash for the weekend too; they are not going to come to Murphy. Mr. Carlucci said (inaudible). Mr. Hewitt said it is like the phone. There is a pay phone out there and there is no money to be made on a pay phone but that one customer a month that has an emergency that wants to use that pay phone it becomes really important. That pay phone is there for an emergency. Mr. Carlucci said (inaudible). You have a very busy traffic flow all along that site. (Inaudible). Do you think there is a conflict there? Mr. Hewitt said I think it is hard to see where the normal flow of traffic is at the Murphy. I don t know if there is a normal flow. There are probably more cars driving on the other side than the correct way just because they like to loop around to make the turn. We are talking about 8-10 people a day. Normally there are more cars parked for whatever reasons in those types of area. Of course, if there was ever any conflict with traffic or any potential accident with anything that Murphy does, then it would be corrected immediately.! 6

7 Mr. Carlucci said (inaudible). Mr. Monnett said the issue that I have is the permanent use of that building is for gasoline. I don t consider it a convenient store. It was mentioned it was a kiosk so I cannot believe, in my opinion, it could be considered an accessory to that primary use, which is to pump gas. That is just how I look at it. There is an ATM inside Wal-Mart because there is a little bank in there. I understand that because you can have an ATM with the bank. That is an accessory. I just have trouble with an ATM being there and the primary use for that location is to pump gas. I don t see a convenient store. I see the kiosk for lack of a better term. Mr. Gibbs said (inaudible). Mr. Matrana said also they want to put an accessory structure on the lot and it would be my understanding if you put it in the kiosk, you wouldn t even need a variance. That is where most of your ATMs would be located if you put it inside a convenient store. Mr. Hewitt said with the strategy and the overall design of the Murphy it is the kiosk style with an external sales outside the kiosk; even the bathroom entrance, the ice, the soda, everything. So, there is no place inside to actually put the machine. The thing that is going to happen with convenience stores, the trend just like in the banking industry, when they first started putting in ATMs, everything was inside because the bank wanted you to come inside. They soon started to realize that is not the most convenient to the consumer. The consumer will always drive what happens in the industry. That is why they started going into these external 24 hour access machines where people can access it 24 hours a day outside. The trend is that way. The convenient store trend is going that way too. Just like pay at the pump there is no convenient store that ever wanted to pay at the pump. The definition of someone in the gas station business they don t exist anymore because it is so hard to make money if you just sale gas. There are very few and I know of no large companies that can actually sale gas and make any profit. The draw is the convenience store and all of the auxiliary stuff around it. You make pennies on the gas. The Exxon and the Mobil, those guys do but that is not the retailer. The guys pumping the fuel you can read the earnings reports but the retailers are not. They make their money on the auxiliary style service business and they make pennies and if they have a volume, they can make some money on gas. But it is up to these additional products that they have. The margins on selling a can of soda is a very high percentage wise because it is convenient. They could go to Wal-Mart and buy it for half the price but they don t because it is convenient but the trend is ATMs just like pay at the pump. No one wanted to pay at the pump from a convenience store because they wanted customers walking inside their store but now almost everybody has to offer pay at the pump because that is the consumer s demand. If a consumer s credit card gets maxed out and they can t pay at the pump, they need cash. Mr. Cavanaugh said you mentioned earlier that 30% of the population does not have an affiliation with a bank and they use some type of a prepaid card to access their cash at any ATM location. Does that scenario also work at pay at the pump? Mr. Hewitt said yes and no. It depends on the customer or the card. The majority probably yes but some are only pin based cards. If it is only a pin based card, then you can only use it at an ATM; you can t use it at the pump. Because of security reasons that 30% they make it pin based because unlike your card if you have a banking relationship, you are only going to pay that first $50.00 and then it is all insured on the back side or sometimes if you have a good arrangement with your bank, you are not going to pay anything if you call them in time. But if you have prepaid and you put $1, on that card, then that card is worth $1, except for that pin so that is where you have to use the ATM to get that money to then go pay; you are not going to use pay at the pump. Mr. Cavanaugh said the 30% that don t have an affiliation with the bank there is a smaller percentage that will have that type of setup on the card that you are describing that out of that a smaller percentage may not be able to use that card. Mr. Hewitt said it is hard to say what the numbers truly are for a store but it is in the convenient store industry that it is greater! 7

8 than 30% that use those services because they don t go across the street to use National City. They use convenient store type items more frequently. One of the sites that I think was on the pictures that she had is where they put the ATM where the ice machine currently is. The actually footprint is smaller than the ice machine for the ATM and it would meet all of the setbacks. Mr. Matrana asked, would you need a variance to do that? Mr. Hewitt said I don t know. It s where the ice machine is. Mr. Daniel said you would still need a variance because the Plan Commission determined that this is not an accessory use. Ms. Sprague said (inaudible). Mr. Daniel said they would not need a variance on the setback. Mr. Hewitt said it s something like selling oil or selling washer fluid. Those are things that you have to have for a convenient store. We do all of that; we sell cigarettes, soda, tobacco, the pay phone, pumps, ice, beverages, snacks. We just try to do it as convenient for the consumers as we possibly can. If they want to use the ATM, they can use the ATM. If they want to buy a candy bar, they can buy a candy bar; they don t have to walk by the aisles of soda to go buy a candy bar. Mr. Matrana asked, is there anyone in the audience who would care to speak on this matter? Mr. Robert Wyse at 6859 Silver Grove Ct., Indianapolis, IN said I would like to see the ATM go in that Murphy Oil parking lot. The affiliation I have with Plainfield is I attend St. Stephens Lutheran Church in Saratoga. Being an Indianapolis resident that frequents Plainfield I would like to see the ATM go in there. Mr. Matrana said with no one else coming forward the public portion of this hearing is closed and I will open it up to the board for discussion or a possible motion concerning an ATM at Murphy Oil. Mr. Cavanaugh said in our possible motion regarding an administrative appeal it is my understanding that there is not an official petition for an administrative appeal. So, we really don t need to address that, is that correct? Mr. Daniel said yes; just address the Use Variance. Ms. Duffer said for clarification the Plan Commission did not see the use of an ATM machine at this convenience store because of traffic flow issues and because of the other issues of in front of U.S. 40. I don t see a hardship coming in so I m inclined to agree with the Plan Commission. Mr. Gibbs made a motion that the Board of Zoning Appeals deny BZA as filed by Welch Systems requesting a Variance of Use to allow an ATM as an accessory use at the gas station and a Variance of Development Standards to allow an ATM to encroach into the side yard setback at the Murphy Oil gas station at 2375 E. Main St. Second by Mr. Cavanaugh. Roll call vote called. Mr. Monnett yes Ms. Duffer yes Mr. Cavanaugh yes Mr. Gibbs yes Mr. Matrana yes 5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent. Motion carried. OLD BUSINESS/NEW BUSINESS None. ADJOURNMENT Mr. Cavanaugh made a motion to adjourn. Second by Ms. Duffer. Motion carried. Meeting adjourned.! 8

9 Mr. Rick Matrana, President! 9